tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post3061357197918077757..comments2023-10-31T06:01:54.153-04:00Comments on Pretty Lady: Why Pretty Lady Talks with MoronsPretty Ladyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-72294414285856882542007-03-15T07:39:00.000-04:002007-03-15T07:39:00.000-04:00"Raise yourself back up to Eternal Life, or Nirvan...<I>"Raise yourself back up to Eternal Life, or Nirvana, or Valhalla..."</I><BR/><BR/>Were I not a Christian, Valhalla would clearly be my number one choice. Fight epic battles all day on the field of honor, then return to the Great Hall to drink mead and eat roasted meat all night long, and head back out to fight the next day.<BR/><BR/>When I stand before the Pearly Gates I will inquire if there is a section of Heaven that resembles that, and if so you know where I will be for eternity...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-10944939178288670592007-03-15T00:32:00.000-04:002007-03-15T00:32:00.000-04:00Mind pointing me in a direction then? I am curious...<I>Mind pointing me in a direction then? I am curious now.</I><BR/><BR/>'Nothing real can be threatened.<BR/><BR/>Nothing unreal exists.<BR/><BR/>Therein lies the peace of God.'<BR/><BR/>--A Course in Miracles.<BR/><BR/>If you'd like to discuss this farther, please email me privately, or get a copy of the Course from your local bookstore and have a look at it. The online sources come across like Flake City.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-31393655898747321942007-03-14T20:48:00.000-04:002007-03-14T20:48:00.000-04:00I shall not go too much farther with this angle, h...<EM>I shall not go too much farther with this angle, however, because the next CIM tenet has to do with God never changing His mind about anyone, and a whole lot of Christians don't tend to like that part.</EM><BR/><BR/>Mind pointing me in a direction then? I am curious now.<BR/><BR/><EM>Assuming we're talking about the Christian Heaven and Hell, then your statement is true IF AND ONLY IF you believe in Christianity. So by your belief, you're condemning me to Hell.</EM><BR/><BR/>By my faith in Jesus I'm condemning you to hell? Astounding! I had no idea I possessed such godlike powers. <BR/><BR/>But if I have them, then you must have them too. Raise yourself back up to Eternal Life, or Nirvana, or Valhalla, or whatever your belief system promises you, by the power of your own belief!<BR/><BR/>No, actually I'm doing no such thing. If we are in fact talking about my belief system, I have nothing to do with it. But Chris, here's the clincher: if you don't believe in God, and the Christian concept of Heaven and Hell, then why should it matter to you in the slightest what I believe? At least so long as I'm not chasing you around with a ten-pound bible, whacking you on the head with it for doing whatever it is that people who thump with bibles don't like you doing.<BR/><BR/>I promise you this: I won't give a damn. Not unless I get to know you well enough personally and actually like you enough to feel like I'd be losing something. <BR/><BR/>Really. I'm too much of a misanthrope to make a very good evangelist.<BR/><BR/>But I certainly hope you don't intend that when the topic of spirituality or religion should come up, that I should sit in the corner and shut up, lest you feel condemned by my mere presence?Desert Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13656526816699347744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-83666743457744664552007-03-14T20:08:00.000-04:002007-03-14T20:08:00.000-04:00You guys really neeed to get laid.You guys <I>really</I> neeed to get laid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-34695093891252253102007-03-14T17:11:00.000-04:002007-03-14T17:11:00.000-04:00Re: Steve Martin:Virgin No. 19: Somewhere on my bo...Re: Steve Martin:<BR/><I>Virgin No. 19: Somewhere on my body I have hidden a buffalo nickel.</I><BR/><BR/>Virgin Number 19 sounds like fun.Chris Rywalthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15766746064219235983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-34070856840922897712007-03-14T17:05:00.000-04:002007-03-14T17:05:00.000-04:00The Big O sez:Actually I prefer someone who knows ...The Big O sez:<BR/><I>Actually I prefer someone who knows his way around rather than a virgin.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm with you on this one. When my wife and I were virgins (or near enough, anyway) we were totally incompetent.<BR/><BR/>I completely fail to understand the obsession some men (often from a couple of particular religious backgrounds) have with virgins. I'd much rather have sex with a professional, or at least an enthusiastic well-practiced amateur.<BR/><BR/>I hear theories that it has something to do with primate reproduction. When a male gorilla defeats the alpha male and takes over, he kills all the babies, just in case some of them aren't his. (So I've heard. But then so many stories like this have turned out to be Victorian falsehoods...) So a virgin wife is one way to be sure the kids are yours.<BR/><BR/>Personally I don't give a crap. I'm a lousy Darwinian. I think my kids would be better off being someone else's -- at least then I wouldn't have to deal with their ADHD, depression, and general insanity.Chris Rywalthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15766746064219235983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-16601184064467426872007-03-14T16:59:00.000-04:002007-03-14T16:59:00.000-04:00Crom sez:However, you cannot posit a moral law wit...Crom sez:<BR/><I>However, you cannot posit a moral law without positing a Law Giver.</I><BR/><BR/>I happen to disagree as strongly as possible with this statement. I'm pretty sure Kant has some good arguments for this.Chris Rywalthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15766746064219235983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-66397390923657081002007-03-14T16:40:00.000-04:002007-03-14T16:40:00.000-04:00Someone was lying to you, Oriane. Hell is when yo...Someone was lying to you, Oriane. Hell is when you have the flu, and cannot get to the grocery store, and have no money anyway, and nobody to run errands for you, so you chop up an old t-shirt and pin it to your drawers.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-80093477687865269932007-03-14T16:39:00.000-04:002007-03-14T16:39:00.000-04:00And there you have it: Summation of the Paternalis...And there you have it: Summation of the Paternalistic Moral Framework. Clear, concise and internally consistent.<BR/><BR/>Pretty Lady is left to do the jazz, which she will do, out of sympathy with St. John Coltrane, who is playing at the moment.<BR/><BR/>Crom, you left out the nature of the Law. "Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart, and all thy soul, and all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment; the second is <B>like unto it</B>; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."<BR/><BR/>Sincere secular humanists, in Pretty Lady's observation, are doing their darndest to observe the second of these commandments, as far as they are able. They may have acquired the impulse through social osmosis, but they are following it.<BR/><BR/>And, by the implication contained in these words of Jesus, they are also doing the former, whether they literally believe in a God or not. At the very least, theologians such as C.S. Lewis and religious novelists such as Graham Greene have speculated to this effect, and Pretty Lady is inclined to rest in their camp. At least she camps out there on Thursdays.<BR/><BR/>Pretty Lady believe, truly, that all Moral Law manifests externally, but it <I>acts</I> internally. Thus moral reasoning naturally evolves from the Exoteric to the Esoteric; for as you so correctly point out, Crom, we are only responsible for ourselves. It is in our own minds that the changes take place.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-82765952339189438612007-03-14T16:28:00.000-04:002007-03-14T16:28:00.000-04:00I don't mind the idea of going to hell. I hear th...I don't mind the idea of going to hell. I hear there are free tampons for all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-71951680841560414972007-03-14T16:11:00.000-04:002007-03-14T16:11:00.000-04:00"So by your belief, you're condemning me to Hell."...<I>"So by your belief, you're condemning me to Hell."</I><BR/><BR/>No. By <I>your</I> belief, or lack thereof you are condemned. I condemn no one, I don't have this kind of power. By the same token, I cannot save you from condemnation either. If I could, I would - I do not relish the idea of people suffering - but I don't get to make that call. Desert Cat is correct, the only decisions I get to make are my own.<BR/><BR/><I>" I can be as nice as I want, but I'm still going to Hell. Not very nice or polite. </I><BR/><BR/>Who the hell said Christ's message was nice or polite? He was rude, He ate with outcasts, He said things that pissed off the Pharisee priests so badly that they wanted Him killed, and eventually convinced the Romans to do it for them. He drove people from the Temple with a whip, and kicked their asses. He was harsh, He told people things they did not want to hear. There is not much nice or polite in my faith, and I don't attend church services since they often are full of non-thinking conformists who think I am going to Hell if I drink bourbon after dinner. Those people are the modern day Pharisees and I am sure Christ would throw them out on their tails were He here, as well.<BR/><BR/>You can choose to hate a God who would condemn you for not believing. You can hate Him, and hate everyone who likes Him. You are<B> totally free in this life to choose </B>whatever you want. <BR/><BR/>The best metaphor for this choice is this: Posit for a moment that you are God, and humanity are your children. Let's get more specific and say that you are God to your daughter. She has free will, and may or may not do what you tell her to. If she directly defies you, there are consequences, aren't there? I don't know what form of punishment you practice in your home, but I assume it ranges from time-outs to spankings. Once she becomes an adult you may be saddened by her choices, but she will have to face the consequences for her actions. If she commits a crime you cannot go to jail for her, can you? No. If she kills someone and gets the death penalty you cannot die for her, can you? No.<BR/><BR/>Yet that is precisely what Jesus did. God agreed that if he died for you that you get a pass for your sins, and so He put himself out there for you. All you have to do is believe that it's true. That's it. Anyone who adds criteria outside of that is full of shit, and there are many Christians who are. <BR/><BR/>In answer to Oriane who is frustrated by religious folks claiming to have a lock on morality, I understand your frustration. I was not always a moral man, and I was not always a Christian. However, you cannot posit a moral law without positing a Law Giver. So atheists and agnostics gain their morals from their culture, which here in the West is Judeo-Christian. If you were raised in Iran I would expect your morality to be different from that of someone who was raised here, since the Christian values that are the foundation of 99% of our culture and morality are not common in Iran. The "innate moral system" described by many atheists as the foundation of their beliefs is simply their absorption of the beliefs of their culture. They will hotly deny this, but it's really just a desperate attempt to obscure the fact that they drew their morals from a supernatural source, by osmosis.<BR/><BR/>There are moral atheists. There are immoral Christians. No one intelligent denies this, the point of contention is the source of those morals.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-36858300033063797742007-03-14T15:52:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:52:00.000-04:00Oriane, I'm with you and Steve Martin on the virg...Oriane, I'm with <A HREF="http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2007/01/29/070129sh_shouts_martin" REL="nofollow"> you and Steve Martin</A> on the virgins.<BR/><BR/>Alix, I love the belchers, too, but not enough to emulate them. Somehow it bothers me more to BE disgusting than to tolerate disgustingness in others.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-24686105184998951872007-03-14T15:49:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:49:00.000-04:00Haha, yes! On the flipside, some friends of mine h...Haha, yes! On the flipside, some friends of mine have gone so far as to believe that raucous belching is an act of self-possession & defiance. I still love them though. <BR/><BR/>-AlixAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-1295392748554673362007-03-14T15:45:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:45:00.000-04:00I'll meet you in hell, Chris. I hear there are ma...I'll meet you in hell, Chris. I hear there are many tasty virgins promised to us.* Or raisins. Oh, wait, is that some other belief system? I get them confused.<BR/><BR/>*Actually I prefer someone who knows his way around rather than a virgin. Maybe if go to purgatory instead of hell, I will get many tasty expert lovers intead of virgins?<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I'm just free-associating here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-78815107635793959642007-03-14T15:41:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:41:00.000-04:00No kidding, Alix. I had people in high school tel...No kidding, Alix. I had people in high school tell me that I was making them uncomfortable by using proper table manners at lunchtime. Not that I was breaking out the six-piece silver place settings; I was merely chewing with my mouth closed.<BR/><BR/>Manners: The Art of Not Grossing People Out.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-71293239292571037222007-03-14T15:32:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:32:00.000-04:00I am sometimes treated w/ suspicion for being poli...I am sometimes treated w/ suspicion for being polite. Politesse! It can only mean stringent protocol or patronizing tolerance! Again and again, I am told that manners are nothing more than archaic duplicitous shackles which bind the free spirit. No. Manners are basic, social, nonjudgmental, nimble. I have observed "free" and it too often appears to mean 'amorphous blob of narcissism & misery'. <BR/><BR/>- AlixAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-43078089195971373782007-03-14T15:27:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:27:00.000-04:00I don't think you're going to Hell, Chris.<I><B>I</I></B> don't think you're going to Hell, Chris.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-85392726110261168212007-03-14T15:25:00.001-04:002007-03-14T15:25:00.001-04:00I can't change God's mind about you. I am perfectl...<I>I can't change God's mind about you. I am perfectly free to change my mind about you.</I><BR/><BR/>Desert Cat! Desert Cat! Yoo-hoo! <BR/><BR/>You have just summed up the Course In Miracles, with this statement--or at least you have summed up one of the basic tenets.<BR/><BR/>I shall not go too much farther with this angle, however, because the next CIM tenet has to do with God never changing His mind about anyone, and a whole lot of Christians don't tend to like that part.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-80374595052956873752007-03-14T15:25:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:25:00.000-04:00Desert Cat sez:Your destination however, is not wi...Desert Cat sez:<BR/><I>Your destination however, is not within my scope, only yours.</I><BR/><BR/>Assuming we're talking about the Christian Heaven and Hell, then your statement is true IF AND ONLY IF you believe in Christianity. So by your belief, you're condemning me to Hell.<BR/><BR/>Of course, if you're a Christian, you think Christ is like gravity: He happens whether or not you believe in him.<BR/><BR/>Christ, that sounds like a bumper sticker.<BR/><BR/>Anyway -- and this is the vibe I've gotten from any number of devout Christians -- I can be as nice as I want, but I'm still going to Hell. Not very nice or polite.Chris Rywalthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15766746064219235983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-41474193127506186602007-03-14T15:10:00.000-04:002007-03-14T15:10:00.000-04:00Chris, I think you may be mistaking Crom changing ...Chris, I think you may be mistaking Crom changing Crom's mind, with Crom changing God's mind. <BR/><BR/>I can't change God's mind about you. I am perfectly free to change my mind about you. I can conclude that you're a perfectly decent human being and a nice man. Your destination however, is not within my scope, only yours.<BR/><BR/>So I think you're drawing a false comparison there.Desert Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13656526816699347744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-34923439781406730782007-03-14T14:46:00.000-04:002007-03-14T14:46:00.000-04:00Crom sez:The big difference between the two groups...Crom sez:<BR/><I>The big difference between the two groups is that the religionists at least have a concrete set of ground rules that they are supposed to follow, the humanists just make it up as they go along and change the rules when they become inconvenient.</I><BR/><BR/>You're right. The vast billions of deaths due to humanists revising their ways of thinking shows the stupidity of their views, while the followers of, just to raise one example, Jesus Christ have done nothing but enrich the Earth with their doctrines of peace and love. <BR/><BR/><I>So for all your vaunted humanism you are guilty of precisely the same judgments that the religious conservatives do.</I><BR/><BR/>Sort of. Except I can change my mind about any given particular knuckle-dragger and decide he is, in fact, a decent human being. Whereas no amount of getting to know me will cause a holy roller to change his mind and decide I get to go to Heaven, since I have not only not accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, I have explicitly rejected him as such. No matter how nice I am on Earth, therefore, I'm going to Hell, at least as far as the True Believer is concerned.<BR/><BR/>I mean, this is a religious discussion and therefore won't go anywhere. But I'd like you to be clear on what I'm saying before you conclude I'm an idiot -- who is also going to Hell.Chris Rywalthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15766746064219235983noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-51730320907520363542007-03-14T14:44:00.000-04:002007-03-14T14:44:00.000-04:00One more thing--Pretty Lady has found you cannot h...One more thing--Pretty Lady has found you cannot have any real communication without affection. One simply has no compelling motive to attend to the words of a person one dislikes, or is indifferent to, minus the aspect of coercion. And coercion in public life is what we would ALL presumably like to avoid.<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, she has found that that hoary old cliché, 'fake it till you make it' is absolutely true. By addressing each and every one of her friends in frivolous terms of endearment, she finds herself coming to genuinely mean what she says. She is re-imprinting the part of her mind which was formerly filled with less-savory types of epithets.<BR/><BR/>And in coming to care for people, Pretty Lady finds herself caring about what they think, what they need, what motivates them, and is thus consumingly interested in what they have to say. And if her Site Meter statistics are anything to go by, the feeling appears to be mutual.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-8002879748838612142007-03-14T14:38:00.000-04:002007-03-14T14:38:00.000-04:00Groupthink will not be stopped by mannersNo, of co...<I>Groupthink will not be stopped by manners</I><BR/><BR/>No, of course not. But someone said something recently that got me thinking--'The Internet allows all the extremist weirdos to find one another and reinforce each other's ways of thinking.' Thus we get Extreme Polarization in public debate, more than a plurality of views being tested in a wider context.<BR/><BR/>When groups of extremists get together and reinforce each other, and other groups of extremists come along and start 'engaging,' the result is almost always a Festival of Flames, with no genuine debate taking place at all. People do not genuinely pay attention to one another, but merely do their best to shout each other down. The whole system of politics is based upon mobilizing the leverage to defeat the opposition, not figure out what aspects of the opposition's perspective bear some serious consideration.<BR/><BR/>Pretty Lady would like to point out that by diligent application of Manners in her own personal online presence, she has managed to invite persons from radically different areas of the sociopolitical spectrum into her home and engage in an informative discussion of mutual interest, spiced with a brand of acrimony that is, she hopes, largely jocular, and reasonably enjoyable for all. This is Pretty Lady's personal tool for <I>starting</I> to attempt to begin to think about solving the world's problems.<BR/><BR/>It is small, it is perhaps trivial, but it beats suicide bombs.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-75003606301489666662007-03-14T14:26:00.000-04:002007-03-14T14:26:00.000-04:00I understand your call to some form of innate huma...<I>I understand your call to some form of innate humanity that would encourage us to not treat each other poorly, but I would offer that is merely Hope speaking, not experience.</I><BR/><BR/>No, you misunderstand. Pretty Lady is speaking from the Experience of feeling as though she would like to throttle the person who was forcing their version of a Higher Power, and all the necessary rituals attendant upon it, down Pretty Lady's throat, mumbo-jumbo syllables and all, even though in principle, she was in full agreement with this person. <BR/><BR/>For dictating what people ought to Believe is dead in the water, <I>a priori.</I> People's minds are their own, and a sordid lot of sewers they can frequently be. Pretty Lady is not concerned with controlling the contents of anyone else's mind, because this is not only impossible, but precisely the sort of thing that leads to the worst atrocities, historically speaking. <BR/><BR/>When Pretty Lady speaks of Manners, what she is really espousing is a system of Social Boundaries. Discussion is courteous; wholesale unprovoked insults are not. Spiritual practice is dandy, and in Pretty Lady's opinion, leads to all Things Grand; the practice of insisting that your seatmate on the bus practice along with you, not so much. It rather defeats the whole purpose, in fact.Pretty Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00342833918614545778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20403719.post-12852337102749786502007-03-14T13:24:00.000-04:002007-03-14T13:24:00.000-04:00I'm sure I will regret getting sucked into this ki...I'm sure I will regret getting sucked into this kind of argument, but here goes.<BR/><BR/>Crom says:<BR/><BR/>"I will not get preachy here, but for your idea to stop the masses from lockstepping in robot formation will not be accomplished with manners, only with a commitment and belief in a Higher Power and obedience to His command to love each other as you love yourself. No other solutions will be effective."<BR/><BR/>You mean kind of like when people in Germany gave their commitment and belief to the Nazi party as their higher power?<BR/><BR/>I am sick of people asserting that atheists or agnostics don't have a strong moral grounding, a sense of right and wrong. As I think Chris is saying, each situation one encounters as a non-religious person requires digging into one's own soul for thought, judgment and action, rather than looking up the answers in some book. Looking up the answers in the book (whatever book it might be, the bible, Mao's little red book, Mein Kampf, Saddam Hussein's instructions, etc.) and blindly following the directions often leads to lockstep thinking and lockstep actions, including many atrocities and millions of deaths over the centuries. Religious people do NOT have a monopoly on morality.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com